tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post1408444408742190403..comments2021-01-31T16:42:23.392-05:00Comments on Questioning Attitude: It is probable that atmospheric scientists were wrong about CFC'sRod Adamshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03652375336090790205noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-50350394714800452582021-01-31T12:00:43.802-05:002021-01-31T12:00:43.802-05:00Hopelessly arrogant? Sorry, yes. Indeed. Couldn...Hopelessly arrogant? Sorry, yes. Indeed. Couldn't you have phrased this as a question, rather than an improbable claim that you're right and the relevant science **including the Nobel chemistry committee (ffs)** is wrong?<br /><br />Sometimes approximations useful in industrial settings omit terms that are important in atmospheric dynamics. (I've seen another similar case but I won&#Michael Tobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229460438349093944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-607400616142750092017-06-06T19:43:54.672-04:002017-06-06T19:43:54.672-04:00I'm fully aware that CFCs "have been meas...I'm fully aware that CFCs "have been measured." The concentrations at which they have been measured at elevated locations in the atmosphere are several orders of magnitude too low to account for the amount of claimed reactions with ozone.<br /><br />When I point out that fact, the general response has been "Of course, that is because they have already been decomposed and Rod Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03652375336090790205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-51105037183091087072017-06-06T13:24:19.316-04:002017-06-06T13:24:19.316-04:00https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/chlorof...https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/chlorofluorocarbons-cfcs/<br /><br />"This is indeed a persistent question--so much so that the most recent report of the World Meteorological Organization, entitled 'Scientific Assessment of Ozone Depletion: 1994,' included it among a list of common questions that have been persistently raised and long since answered. Susan Solomon of NOAA Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-4667453692031271162015-11-01T16:00:39.056-05:002015-11-01T16:00:39.056-05:00Still going as expected:
"... This year, sci...Still going as expected:<br /><br />"... This year, scientists recorded the minimum thickness of the ozone layer at 101 Dobson units on October 4, 2015, as compared to 250-350 Dobson units during the 1960s, before the Antarctic ozone hole occurred. Dobson units are a measure of the overhead amount of atmospheric ozone.<br /><br />The satellite ozone data come from the Dutch-Finnish Ozone Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-12136034571316185112015-05-27T23:19:18.675-04:002015-05-27T23:19:18.675-04:00Chlorofluorocarbons have been measured, as has the...Chlorofluorocarbons have been measured, as has the chlorine released from those very stable molecules when they finally do break down in the stratosphere. Control on producing and releasing the CFCs, reduction in the amount measured.<br /><br /> Nature Communications 6,Article number:7233<br /> doi:10.1038/ncomms8233<br /> <br />"... Chlorine- and bromine-containing ozone-depleting Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-37672016849934751682015-03-19T19:20:02.060-04:002015-03-19T19:20:02.060-04:00This may help -- I'm taking the people who do ...This may help -- I'm taking the people who do the calculations for kinetic gaseous diffusion at their word; there are enough decades of work done and enough measurements, I think, to confirm theory and practice give the same answer on it.<br />http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=diffusion+heavy+molecule+chlorofluorocarbon+stratosphere<br /><br />The first result is <br /><br />Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-42076885560826102062014-11-20T12:30:26.895-05:002014-11-20T12:30:26.895-05:00see also:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/4313719
see also:<br />http://www.jstor.org/stable/4313719<br /><br />Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-30271601424307394502014-11-20T11:46:00.081-05:002014-11-20T11:46:00.081-05:00Rod, to sum up -- I like what you do, but you'...Rod, to sum up -- I like what you do, but you're basically arguing that what the physicists and chemists say can't possibly be right because, uh, you can't believe it, because, uh, it can't possibly be right, because -- this is the key -- because it's such a little tiny small minute effect how could it matter?<br /><br />And the answer from the physicists and chemists is -- itHank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-8110030440569168092014-11-20T11:30:09.257-05:002014-11-20T11:30:09.257-05:00This may help, since Rod asked why the chemists st...This may help, since Rod asked why the chemists started looking:<br />http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/j100490a001Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-75975164120708646062014-11-20T11:26:11.053-05:002014-11-20T11:26:11.053-05:00But, Rod, they're out there:
http://scholar.go...But, Rod, they're out there:<br />http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=chlorofluorocarbon+tracer<br /><br />The exceptional stability of these compounds is the key here. <br /><br />You didn't believe they'd diffuse -- but the're observed in the stratosphere, so they do get there.<br /><br />You don't think they could be a problem, but they're known to be.<br /><br />They Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-1129010251798014952014-04-23T21:22:28.751-04:002014-04-23T21:22:28.751-04:00Hank - the flaw in the assumptions made by Rowland...Hank - the flaw in the assumptions made by Rowland is that the places where CFC's were leaked are not actually very open air.<br /><br />Nearly all CFC containing systems operate at or below ground level and they operate in places where people live and have built basements, sewers, and trenches and where nature has carved valleys and pits. <br /><br />There are many low circulation areas on Rod Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03652375336090790205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-56717331788638683402014-04-23T21:17:36.775-04:002014-04-23T21:17:36.775-04:00Oh, these searches -- done in Google then in Schol...Oh, these searches -- done in Google then in Scholar -- find pretty much the information I rely on. Your observation -- in the situation where you made them, over the time span you made them -- that heavier gases do sink, for a while -- is correct. In the atmosphere, over a period of a few years, no. <br /><br />Note in the ocean mixing takes longer -- and these are very useful tracers for Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-57360800008184620022014-04-23T21:08:45.750-04:002014-04-23T21:08:45.750-04:00Ah, OK. I'm an old guy, I was reading the ozo...Ah, OK. I'm an old guy, I was reading the ozone story when it first came out and have watched it since. And I've seen the "heavy, sinks ..." argument made over all those years -- so I guessed you'd come across it somewhere and thought it sounded credible.<br /><br />You can look this stuff up, and I trust you will. Basically, I'll predict you'll find that you'Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-52964141475665347462014-04-22T18:38:52.540-04:002014-04-22T18:38:52.540-04:00Hank - What makes you think that my questions on t...Hank - What makes you think that my questions on this topic were influenced by anyone's agenda?<br /><br />The only people I am trusting on the issue of whether or not CFCs sink or risk is my own experience of tracing their behavior inside a well mixed, but isolated atmosphere inside a submarine.<br /><br />That behavior is validated by the material safety data sheets that warn practitioners Rod Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03652375336090790205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-80190313942902448642014-04-22T15:31:26.370-04:002014-04-22T15:31:26.370-04:00Did you get any further with this?
The best reass...Did you get any further with this?<br /><br />The best reassurance someone like you can offer those who worry about industry is to say, "ya know, I read more about this since then, and talked to more people who had better information, and thought about who I was trusting and their agenda, and after that, my opinion changed a bit, and now, I think ....."<br /><br />Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-27365146840474518682012-01-01T12:51:05.103-05:002012-01-01T12:51:05.103-05:00this may help explain the timing -- why ozone goes...this may help explain the timing -- why ozone goes away when the sunlight returns: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14356007.o02_o06/full<br />Ozone-forming and ozone-decomposing reactions are summarized iHank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-32760261026234167222011-10-23T14:20:29.449-04:002011-10-23T14:20:29.449-04:00This may help, as an example of how a skeptic inve...This may help, as an example of how a skeptic investigates an area where he has a strongly held belief, trusting only his own work, and proves himself wrong and changes his mind: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204422404576594872796327348.html<br /><br />OCTOBER 21, 2011<br /><br />The Case Against Global-Warming Skepticism<br />There were good reasons for doubt, until now.<br /><Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-38062469478263224592011-07-21T16:14:00.138-04:002011-07-21T16:14:00.138-04:00Rod, I think you'd find this book rewarding:
h...Rod, I think you'd find this book rewarding:<br />http://www.google.com/search?q="Ozone%2BLayer"%2B"philosophy%2Bof%2Bscience"<br /><br />This explains what I think you'll find very helpful about the book:<br />http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/an-instance-of-the-fingerpostHank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-69074297069197789882011-07-11T07:27:37.814-04:002011-07-11T07:27:37.814-04:00Rod, let me suggest a couple of examples where you...Rod, let me suggest a couple of examples where you misstate the physics, followed by information you can find in Rowland's Nobel Lecture in Chemistry <br />http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1995/rowland-lecture.html<br /><br />You wrote:<br />> sinks ... sumps ... <br />> gravity ... density<br /><br />Wrong. <br /><br />"... present in the Earth’s atmosphereHank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-34440693370882603232010-07-05T19:09:46.506-04:002010-07-05T19:09:46.506-04:00Footnotes:
1. “U.S. Standard Atmosphere, 1962” N...Footnotes:<br /><br />1. “U.S. Standard Atmosphere, 1962” National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, National Aeronautics and Space Administration, U.S. Air Force, Washington, DC (1962); “U.S. Standard Atmosphere, 1976”, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, National Aeronautics and Space Administration, U.S. Air Force, Washington, D.C. (1976).<br /><br />2. “CFCs are heavy, david lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01057820755734099375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-28914574396774820582010-07-05T19:08:17.283-04:002010-07-05T19:08:17.283-04:00Sherwood Rowland, quoted from "President'...Sherwood Rowland, quoted from "President's Lecture: The Need for Scientific Communication with the Public", Science; Jun 11, 1993; 260, 5114; Platinum Periodicals pg. 1571.<br /><br />"Most scientists know that gravity acts in proportion to the molecular weight of molecules, with the result that those which are heavier than air tend to sink toward the floor when released in a david lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01057820755734099375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-77715655569281671402010-07-02T04:22:34.932-04:002010-07-02T04:22:34.932-04:00@ Stephen Gloor,
I don't know if you are stil...@ Stephen Gloor,<br /><br />I don't know if you are still monitoring this, but thank you very much for your response. It is helpful. I am sorry to be obtuse here but I am still a bit confused.<br /><br />You said,<br /><br />"No he didn't. This is not a reason in itself but leads to more effective depletion of ozone by the CFCs. Without the CFCs the ozone level over the Antarctic Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05131363011633625573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-75541750415791244282010-06-27T08:58:09.679-04:002010-06-27T08:58:09.679-04:00Here are some additional resources that might be u...Here are some additional resources that might be useful in future modeling and discussion.<br /><br />It turns out that there has been a substantial amount of work done on the behavior and modeling of heavier than air gases in the years since the ban on CFCs. These studies have not focused on CFCs, but on gases like CO2, propane, LNG and chlorine that have the potential for posing significant Rod Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03652375336090790205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-20661345833906402882010-06-25T07:14:34.983-04:002010-06-25T07:14:34.983-04:00David - "If the Ozone is depleting in a way t...David - "If the Ozone is depleting in a way that is uniform due to through mixing of the atmosphere why is Western Australia exceptional? "<br /><br />Its not - it is near the area of depletion that extends over the Antarctic. The Antarctic is cold and dry both conditions lead to more erosion of ozone than in other areas. Also the Antarctic is surrounded by what amounts to a wall of Stephen Gloorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08552916617371409725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-861544080772229446.post-81427594871827337482010-06-22T18:17:17.619-04:002010-06-22T18:17:17.619-04:00@ Stephen Gloor,
If the Ozone is depleting in a w...@ Stephen Gloor,<br /><br />If the Ozone is depleting in a way that is uniform due to through mixing of the atmosphere why is Western Australia exceptional? <br /><br />Rod did propose a mechanism for the depletion of ozone in the southern hemisphere. The isolation of Antarctica during the winter due to unique weather conditions. <br /><br />So, respectfully, would we not consider that this Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05131363011633625573noreply@blogger.com